Episode Overview

When you're recovering from breast cancer, you're bombarded with advice—some of it rooted in science, some of it based on personal stories. But how do you know what to trust? How do you separate what’s promising from what’s just popular?

In this episode, I’ll walk you through how to understand the evidence pyramid—from anecdotal stories to randomized controlled trials—and explain where therapies like the ketogenic diet, ozone therapy, sonodynamic therapy, hyperbaric oxygen, and high-dose vitamin C fall in that landscape.

You’ll learn how to make informed, personalized decisions that honor both the science and your lived experience—so you can heal smarter, not harder.

What You’ll Learn in This Episode

✅ The 5 levels of scientific evidence explained in simple, everyday language
✅ The difference between the ketogenic diet and therapeutic ketosis
✅ Where popular integrative therapies rank in terms of research
✅ Why anecdotal evidence matters more than you might think
✅ How to evaluate whether a therapy is right for your body and your terrain
✅ A simple 3-question filter to help you make smart, aligned decisions
✅ How to combine personal experience with medical research to build a whole-body healing plan

Mentioned Therapies in This Episode

• Ketogenic diet vs. ketosis
• Ozone therapy
• Sonodynamic therapy
• Hyperbaric oxygen therapy (HBOT)
• High-dose intravenous vitamin C

This Episode Is For You If...

• You’ve ever been told “there’s no evidence for that” and felt shut down
• You’re exploring complementary or alternative healing therapies
• You want to feel more confident and informed in conversations with your care team
• You believe healing is about more than just treatment—it’s about supporting the whole person

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Read the full transcript:

0:00
You're listening to better than before breast cancer with the breast cancer recovery coach, I'm your host, Laura Lummer. I'm a certified life coach, and I'm a breast cancer thriver. In this podcast, I will give you the skills on the insides and the tools to move past the emotional and physical trauma of a breast cancer diagnosis if you're looking for a way to create a life that's even better than before breast cancer, you've come to the right place. Let's get started.

0:33
Hey, friends, welcome to episode 417

0:36
of better than before breast cancer. I'm your host. Laura Lummer. I'm thrilled to be here with you today, because we're going to talk about something that we all need to be very aware of. We're going to talk about really understanding the evidence out there when it comes to things we can choose to support our ability to heal and live a healthy life and and what that evidence means. How do we understand and validate and how we can inform ourselves and how we can feel comfortable with the amount of information that we're getting, so that we can make a decision that feels right for us. So I know personally, that I meet people all the time, and when they ask me about what I do, or we start to talk about integrative medicine or complimentary therapies, that they'll be very dismissive and say, oh, there's no evidence behind that. That's all anecdotal. And maybe you've heard of you. Maybe you've had people say that to you because you've talked about doing ketogenic diet or ozone therapy, or you've heard about these terms hyperbaric oxygen chambers and high dose vitamin C therapy. And you thought, well, that sounds interesting, but what's the proof behind it? Is it safe? How do I know it's right for me? Which are all great questions. And so when we don't have enough information, we can be left feeling very fearful, and we can be stuck kind of between this curiosity and caution, which is a reasonable thing to do. So I want to walk you through the different kinds of studies that are out there, and I want to talk about them in plain and simple English, and talk to you about how researchers decide what qualifies as good evidence. And most importantly, I want to really touch on and explain where personal stories that sound like yes, I tried this, and I felt amazing where these things that are called anecdotal evidence fit into the picture. And I hope that by the end of this episode, you'll know how or feel more comfortable with weighing out what is published data and the lived experience so that you can build an integrative planet and even understand the meaning of integrative plan in more detail and in a way that feels good for you, in a way that you can feel grounded in, and in a way that is unique to your experience. And that really is what I think is so important that if it's with your lifestyle, your needs, your body. So let's start off with talking about what counts as, quote, unquote, real evidence. So let's talk about something that's really confusing to a lot of people. How do we actually figure out what works? How do they science figure out what works in medicine? So I'm sure you've heard someone say, again, there's no evidence for that when it comes to something like acupuncture or chiropractic or keto diet or ozone therapy, but there actually is evidence. And the better question is, what type of evidence is available for this? Right? What kind of evidence? Because there's usually something that's out there. So let's think about scientific evidence as a pyramid structure. We'll start think about the food pyramid. But we're not talking about food so at the bottom of this pyramid is the widest base, and at that base is where we have the kind of information that's the most common but also perceived as the least reliable, and this is where we find things like personal testimonials or stories that you hear from your friends, or you hear from online support groups, or you hear from me about stuff that I've used right, that I've done for myself to support my own healing journey. We call this anecdotal evidence, and you might find these stories to be really inspiring. But you may question, well, how do I know this might work for me? Right? Because these things, testimonials and anecdotal evidence aren't measured and verified in a controlled way, right? If I come to you and I'll share some things on this podcast as I talk about therapies that I do for myself, but there could be 1000 questions. Well, okay, so, Laura, you do ozone therapy, but what do you eat? And how is your stress level, and how hydrated Do you stay, and what medications are you taking, and what supplements go with that, right? So, lots of questions. So when we talk about looking at something in a measured and verified way, it means it's controlled, and we know how many variables. Are involved, and we're comparing apples to apples, right? So then a step up from this very wide base is what's called case reports, or case series, and these are published by healthcare providers. It can be naturopathic providers, it can be chiropractic, it can be acupuncture, right? It could be any kind of healthcare provider who observes something that's very promising in a patient or in several patients. And this evidence is a step up from testimonials, because it's backed up with some kind of documentation of data, right? So it's reviewed and documented with data for this specific person or group of people. Let me use as an example here, Dr nation winters and the metabolic approach to cancer, or Dr Kelly Turner and radical remission. So both of these women looked at hundreds of studies, maybe even more than that, and Dr nation with patients, and Dr Kelly Turner reviewing cases that were medical cases, and then they said, Wow, there's something here, right? I see that there's a commonality amongst across these people. Dr Kelly Turner said, Whoa, these people had spontaneous remissions from cancer, and all of them did these nine things. They did lots of things, but all of them did these nine. Every single one of them did these nine. Let's dig into these nine things, and let's think about what that means. So there's some data behind it, there's some documentation behind it. Dr nation, of course, she's got a ton of documentation, decades of practice, and said, Hey, here's what I see, here's what I see helps these people. Here's what I see improves outcomes. Here are things that when I apply to these patients, across the board, for decades at a time. Here's the data behind it, here's what we've seen, right? So step up from just someone sharing their own story, then we have observational studies. So this is when a group of people are followed over time, and different behaviors, treatments or exposures are compared. And so this can show patterns and associations, but it doesn't necessarily cause. Show cause and effect. The first thing that pops into my mind is the Nurses Health Study. This is like 1000s and 1000s of people followed over decades, but obviously, when you're following 1000s of people over decades, you might see patterns, but you cannot compare them, because you can't possibly have the manpower it takes to watch what these people are eating, what their lives involve, what their relationships involve, how much they exercise, right? So you can't follow all the details and have a controlled group over on this side that didn't do any of these things and compare the two, right? So from these observational studies. We can watch things. We can watch big groups of people and say, Hmm, interesting. There's a pattern there. Maybe we should look deeper into that. And so then that takes us to the next rung of the next level of the pyramid. This is where we see the gold standard, the randomized controlled trial, or it's called the RCT, and this is where participants are randomly assigned to groups, group A, B and C, and researchers control the variables to what really works. So for instance, if 30 people were broken up into three groups of 10, and they all had stage two breast cancer, and they were all within a certain age group, and they were all fed a specific diet, and they all took tamoxifen, except one group, right? One group did all the same things, but the variable is the Tamoxifen, and the Tamoxifen is removed, removed from that group, and then they're following their say, Okay, now what happened? Right? So if this group ate the same and moved the same, but didn't take tamoxifen. This group ate the same anti tamoxifen. This group ate, moved and took tamoxifen. What happened? How do we control these variables and see exactly what happened? It's random. We don't know who's doing what. Obviously, in a case of, if I'm talking about diet, you can't not know what you're eating, but you get the idea, right? That's just kind of the comparison. And then at the very top of the pyramid is where we have what's called meta analysis, or systemic systematic reviews, okay? And this is where people pull together all of the best available RCTs randomly controlled trials. They look at all of the gold standard evidence from a larger lens. So maybe there's 30 different studies on one thing, and these are all very well constructed studies. And so someone takes all of them says, well, across all 30 of these studies, what did we find out? So when these are done, they give us probably the most reliable conclusions, because they include more people, they look at more studies, and they're able to compare more data and more evidence. So the higher up the pyramid we go, the stronger and more reliable the evidence is considered to be, but also the less common and more expensive it is to do right the. We don't have as many RCTs because they're super expensive and really hard to do. So the base of the pyramid is a lot of testimonials, because a lot of people can talk about what happened, but how many people have millions of dollars and get grants and are approved to do these studies and able to do them in humans? And, you know, get this, this gold standard of a study. It's not that easy, so there's a lot less of it. So let's focus a little bit more on anecdotal evidence. So we've got this structure of our pyramid, and let's take a look at this bottom layer, because it often gets brushed off or dismissed, and that's really why I want to talk about it, because it's actually where everything begins, right? Anecdotal evidence, personal stories, these are really relevant and important. When people say, I started using castor oil packs and my pain eased, or my friend did hyperbaric oxygen therapy, and it really worked on this thing, and then somebody else tries it, and they say, Oh, I got a good that's that worked for me, a good outcome. Then someone else tries it, right? So these stories are very real, and they do matter, and they especially matter to the person who experienced them, right? So why are they considered weak evidence? It's because, not because they're false, not because they're not true, not because it didn't happen in real time, in real life for that person, it's because they're uncontrolled, right? So we don't know what other factors were at play for that person who got the good outcome. So was it the therapy itself, or did that person make a bunch of lifestyle changes at the same time that they started that therapy. Did they have less stress? Did they have better sleep? Did they clean up their diet? Right? So it isn't that it's invalid, it isn't that it's not true. It isn't that it's misinformation. Is that it's not meeting that scientific standard of following the scientific method, the protocol by which controlled studies are done, right?

12:08
So let's talk about case reports, the next step. These are those observations that are written up by doctors, and they're often accompanied with lab data or imaging. So when I go to conferences and I'll hear doctors talking about metabolic health and the metabolic approach to health. And these doctors will say, look, here's this. Here are these brain scans from this person with glioblastoma. And here's 10 patients with a glioblastoma or breast cancer or whatever it is that came to my office. Here's where they started. We put them on a ketogenic diet. Here's what we saw, right? So we see the actual data and the evidence, and so still talking about an individual experience, but it's a little more structured. And what I love about this is that every major medical discovery has to start at this level, right with observation. Let's think about antibiotics that started with someone noticing mold that was killing bacteria, right? So anecdotal evidence people's lived experiences are the spark that ignites the curiosity that hopefully causes us to be curious and to ask, is there something here we should look at more in a more controlled manner, right? So while there might not be enough to base guidelines on at an anecdotal or even case study level, they're incredibly valuable at a starting point. And it does matter. Your story matters. Your experience counts because it's real and it happened for you. Okay, so I want to talk about a couple of really popular, common therapies that would be considered complimentary therapies. And let me just distinguish a complimentary versus an alternative therapy. So a complimentary therapy would be let me give you my personal example. I take a conventional therapy. I take an oral chemotherapy to treat cancer, but I also incorporate complimentary therapies to optimize the wellness of my body, the terrain of my body, to support its ability to heal, while this traditional chemotherapy is destroying cancer cells. So alternative therapy would be if I were to choose any one of the therapies that I do instead of conventional therapy, that I would say I'm not doing conventional therapy. I'm only going to do these other things that would be an alternative, right? But I focus, and what I'm talking about here on this podcast is always the integrative approach, which means complementary medicine, complimentary therapies. And when I say complementary medicine, I mean supplements, diet, nutrition, ozone. And sonodynamic therapy. So let's just I want to talk to you about five different therapies, and I want to help you understand where they would fall on this pyramid and why you might want to be curious about them. So first and foremost, the ketogenic diet and the state of ketosis. So the ketogenic diet is a high fat, very low carb way of eating, and it's designed to help your body produce ketones, which are an alternative fuel source to glucose, blood sugar. But here's where it gets really interesting, and we need to be really clear about this, there is a difference between eating a ketogenic diet and being in a state of ketosis. So the ketogenic diet is a method, and ketosis is the result. So ketosis is a metabolic state where your body is using ketones for energy. You can reach ketosis through fasting, through supplements called exogenous ketones, you can get to a state of ketosis in ways other than a keto diet, but the keto diet in cancer research does show promising results. In studies, the ketogenic diet demonstrates that there's more blood sugar control, there's reduced insulin and potentially improved treatment tolerance, meaning, again, let me use my example. I am coming upon four and a half years now of being on chemotherapy treatments, hormone treatments, radiation treatments, all kinds of stuff. But I follow another plan. I follow these complimentary therapy so that I tolerate that treatment better, right? So it's not kicking my butt and exhausting me and depleting me. Okay? So the ketogenic diet has been shown not only to help with that treatment tolerance, but to even suggest that there's that it can help make cancer cells more vulnerable, so it can increase the efficacy, it can increase the outcomes or improve the outcomes of treatments. But the studies are still small. They're short term, placing ketogenic diet kind of in the middle of the evidence pyramid, right in that case study type of area. Then there's the research on ketosis itself, that's actually at an earlier stage, because they're really two different things, right? What is a ketogenic diet show, which is not easy, right? To do a study and keep people on a diet and monitor everything they put in their mouth, there's going to be some trust there, if that is not at a controlled level. And then there's the studies on ketosis. When people are in a state of ketosis. Now it's happening. So these studies are at earlier stages, and a lot of them are lab or animal studies, and of course, the best evidence is when it's human studies, but it still helps us to understand the deeper metabolic impact of ketones and their impact on cancer cells. So when we talk about the evidence for keto, we have to ask, were participants actually in ketosis? Because that distinction matters. A lot of people switch to a ketogenic diet for weight loss or for other benefits, for whatever it might be, but are they in ketosis? So even when it comes to fasting, and I'm working with people who are going through treatment and they want to be in a state of ketosis when they go in for their chemotherapy or their radiation or any other type of treatment they're having, and they say, Well, I fasted or Well, I ate my ketogenic diet. But unless they were testing their blood to see where their ketones were in relation to their blood sugar, you can't really know if you were in ketosis, and that distinction is really important. Okay, so there is evidence on that. There are studies on that, but maybe not at that level of randomly controlled studies, and where there's a whole bunch of them, all right, ozone therapy. I did a podcast long time ago, I don't know, long time ago, maybe a year ago, on ozone therapy. In fact, I was in Maldives August 2024 which is when I was introduced to this, and I did a podcast shortly after that, and since that time, I do ozone therapy on myself on a daily basis. So ozone is a highly energized form of oxygen. It's used in therapies to support immunity, to reduce inflammation and to increase oxygenation in the body, in the system, and most research is still in pre clinical or case study stages. So anecdotally, lots of people report increased energy, detoxification support and definitely improvement in some symptoms they may be suffering. So there's different ways you can apply ozone, multiple different ways, and I'll share with you, with my husband and my sister, they come they use my ozone setup in a way where it's administered through the ears. Ozone is something you don't want to breathe because it's an irritant. You don't want to breathe it directly into the lungs. So it's the stethoscope looking device. They. This in their ears, they apply ozone, and it has literally changed the world when it comes to their headaches, their sinuses, their allergies, the stuffiness in their head, the pressure in their head, just have had tremendous benefits. Right? Testimonial, right? Anecdotal, but it's true. It's their lived experience, and they can tell you, my husband, who I took an insane amount of aspirin on a daily basis, has drastically reduced that in in managing his allergies, and he's not very consistent with his own zone, so it's really made a huge difference for him, even without that consistency. So there's anecdotal evidence, right? So people do report great results when they use ozone. You can go out and look at it, but it's still on the lower levels of the pyramid for now, but it's really sparking a lot of interest. And a lot of naturopathic practitioners use ozone across the country because of the benefits they see. There's sonodynamic therapy. This is called SDT. This is another therapy that I use. This is a therapy that I use because I had active lymph node in my chest, and the amount of radiation my radiation oncologist wanted to do was the whole entire white right quadrant of my chest, and the side effects from that were very likely going to have a negative impact on my rib cage and on my lung. And he said I could expect to develop a cough that he would think and hope would go away after time. And I wasn't willing to do that. So I do sonodynamic therapy, and that is the application of these sound waves, and it activates a special compound called a photosensitizer, and it is used. This therapy is used to weaken or kill cancer cells. Now, most of the research there's you can look up lots of studies on sonodynamic or photodynamic therapy. It's really fascinating, and lots of the research is still in animals or in labs, with a very few early human trials that have started, but it's a therapy that is now kind of in that pre clinical to early clinical zone, and it's got lots of promise, but it's in early development, so that's a step above anecdotal, right? And a step above case study. And then hyperbaric oxygen therapy. This is something that's very commonly heard about. This involves breathing 100% oxygen in a pressurized chamber, and it's FDA approved for radiation burns and for wound healing. And there are studies that are starting to look at it, at its use in cancer care, for its use in cancer care. So early research is showing this potential benefits, like better treatment, tolerance, improved healing, and it's it's a bit higher on that pyramid than ozone or sonodynamic therapy, because there's more human data and a nice, solid safety record behind it. And then finally, one that I think we hear about often is high dose vitamin C therapy. So this is an intravenous vitamin C at pharmacological levels, very high doses of vitamin C higher than you can ingest through your mouth, through orally without causing a tremendous amount of irritation to the digestive system. So it's applied intravenously, and studies show that it might reduce treatment side effects and possibly support other cancer therapies. Right? So there are human trials here. There are more human trials here than with some of the other therapies. And so it goes up a little bit higher and sits right in the middle of that pyramid. It's safe when properly supervised. You gotta get your lab work done. You need to work with a doctor who knows what they're doing, so they look at your labs first. They understand what other things you are taking it is a supervised treatment, not something you should just go out and do on your own for a couple of reasons, because there are specific labs that if you haven't tested them, and there are certain genetic snips, if you haven't tested them, and you go and do high dose vitamin C therapy, you could just be throwing money out the window, because it is not inexpensive, neither is hyperbaric oxygen, and if you're not in the right metabolic state when you go do these therapies, you're just wasting your money because they're not going to have the desired effect. So working with a trained practitioner, a doctor who knows what they're doing in these circumstances is very important for your safety and for the effectiveness, all right. And if you want to look up evidence on any of these studies, you just go to PubMed, and you put in the search on PubMed, hyperbaric oxygen, sonodynamic therapy and cancer, you know, look up the things you want to understand, and you will find all the evidence that's out there. And there's a lot of fascinating evidence. So some is. In earlier research processes. But that doesn't mean that it's ineffective. It means science is still catching up to what a lot of people experienced and anecdotally brought forward and said, We need to look at this right. This is why it's so important to listen to your own body, to track your own responses, to understand what works for you and to work with knowledgeable, open minded practitioners who are willing to listen to your lived experience. Okay, so how do we use this information in real life? So what I talked about these treatments, and I talked about how they're perceived and where they fall in this pyramid. So how is this any benefit to you? Well, I hope that it allows you to formulate better questions for yourself when you hear of a therapy, to think about. Where does this therapy sit on the pyramid? Right of scientific evidence? Is this therapy backed up by large trials? Or do we have more anecdotal early stage reports? And this can help you weigh out the benefits and risks, because I know firsthand, as I live every day, working to heal this body from cancer, I know we want to be safe. Something sound okay, some things sound a little too Woo. Woo. Some, you know, we're not ready for and we just want to know what we're doing is safe and hopefully very effective. So another question, or a few more questions here, is, what is the goal? Why would you do this therapy? Because, remember, you're not an oncologist. You don't treat cancer, you can do these therapies to optimize your wellness, strengthen your immune system, help your body to detoxify. What is the goal? And if you're saying yourself, well, the goal is to cure myself from cancer, let's look at let's take a step back and let's talk about the mechanism in your body you want to support. Are you trying to reduce side effects? Are you trying to improve your energy? Do you want to slow cancer progression by making the terrain healthier, by not giving cancer the the optimal environment to grow in, right? So matching the therapy to the goal can make a lot of difference. So it's an important question to ask, and we always want to consider safety. Is this something that's in early stage? It may still be worth exploring lots of times we do pharmaceutical drugs that are in early stages right now, they come beyond what anecdotal is for sure, but they're still in early stages. And so we read about them, we talk to our doctors about them, we ask about the risks, we ask ask about the side effects, and weigh them out to say is, Does this sound worth it to me, but make sure that you understand that even complimentary therapies have potential interactions with all other therapies. And so again, you got to talk to a provider understands your full health picture. You have to pay attention to how you feel, keep a journal. Note your energy, note your pain levels, note your digestive situation, your sleep and your labs. Everything is a part of your story, and this is how you bring science and intuition and bio individuality together, right? We want to integrate everything. We don't want to isolate. And I'll give you an example. Recently, over the last couple months, I've been having a lot of aching in my hips. Now, of course, I'm sure you can empathize. I've had cancer in my hips, so when they start to ache. The first thing I think of is, Oh, crap. I hope that there's not more metabolic activity. Got my PET scan, got my tumor markers, have my labs. Everything looks great. No activity. So then I think, Okay, well, I have scarring in these bones right from having had cancer in them, and I also have arthritis in my hips now. So maybe I'm going to try collagen I've heard like a collagen supplement. I already, already use bone bone broth. I was gonna say bone cancer. Geez. I already take bone broth on a regular basis. I thought, well, let me add in some hydrolyzed collagen, and let me see if that helps. And so I added in, didn't change anything else, added in the collagen. And over the course of a few weeks, I noticed a a very noticeable difference in the I don't have any achiness in my hips anymore. So I said, Okay, this worked for me, right? So I based it on anecdotal evidence. I looked up some scientific evidence, some studies, some information that I could find on collagen, and then I tried it for myself, but noted how I felt along the way, paid attention to it, right? So I hope that you can understand from this that the message I'm trying to say is we don't have to choose between complementary care and conventional care, because I am a firm believer that healing happens when we use both strict. Strategically, compassionately, intelligently and with the correct guidance and support. All right, we need to stay curious. We need to stay rooted and grounded in the power we have over ourselves. And so here's just a few things that I hope you'll carry with you from this show, from this episode, evidence is more important than just published papers. Evidence includes your lived experience, what you live and what you experience is true and it's real, okay. And we have to remember this is something I didn't throw in there, but we also have to remember, even when we're looking at a really good study, we have to ask ourselves who funded the study, and question if any biases may have been present there, right? It's just, and that's not a conspiracy theory thing. It's just a fact. Politics permeates everything, everywhere in this world, and I don't mean presidential politics, I mean politicking, right? And where money comes from. So we do have to be aware of who funds different studies. I just want you to take with you here the ability to ask better questions. Where does this therapy sit on the pyramid? What is the goal of using this therapy? Is this therapy safe for me? Are there potential interactions with other things? So really personalize your care. Think about building your team, who's the nutritionist on your team, who's treating the cancer, who's treating the terrain, who's helping you with mental and emotional support. So if something makes your body feel stronger and more resilient and more supported, that matters. And so you get to blend research, professional guidance and your own inner wisdom in this experience. So whether you're exploring something new or you're just starting to ask questions, you're not just a patient. You are a whole person with lots of experiences and lots of variables in your life and your healing deserves to be just as whole, right? I'm a big believer and love and trust my oncologist and his opinions and his experience on treating cancer, but he and I also have amazing conversations about the labs I run on myself and what I'm looking at and how I address those with lifestyle and nutrition. And I love just recently, he said to me, you know, I'm really learning a lot about looking at these labs for you and how well you're doing. And he started asking me questions about the different labs that I run on myself. What are you looking for when you do this? Or he saw something recently, he said, Oh, IGF one. I've been hearing a lot of studies on this. We're really seeing that this may have some relevance in treatment. And they started asking me about where I get these labs run. Because could he also have an account as a doctor so that he could ask for tests that insurance doesn't let him run that he'd like to see on some of his patients? Pretty cool, right? So having a team, having people that understand it, even if they don't completely agree. My oncologist does not completely agree with everything I do, but he supports my decisions and says, Be transparent with me, be open with me, so that we don't do anything that causes you harm, right? Because we have to be mindful of interactions. So I do invite you to explore the therapies I talked about in more depth, and definitely, I'll put a link in the show notes for this podcast, to the directory of physicians that's been trained by Dr Nasha winters in the metabolic approach to cancer, and to how I like to say into health. Because honestly, I say this all the time, it does not matter who I work with. I choose to work with people who have had a diagnosis of breast cancer, but I don't treat cancer, so it doesn't matter who I work with, or who anyone who's taking this metabolic approach. It doesn't matter who they work with, because we're supporting their healthiest and their most optimized terrain. We're not treating a disease of any kind. So whatever someone's health issue is, when you're talking about applying these therapies or using diet and still looking at what these different therapies or therapeutic kind of metabolic states will provide for you, we're thinking about optimizing wellness, and that's really important. So if you got a lot out of this, forward this to someone else, whether or not they have cancer, to help them understand how they can look at scientific evidence to see what might be the best therapies to support their wellness. All right, friends, you know, you can find me inside the better than before breast cancer, metabolic health and mindset membership, where we explore questions like this together. We have group coaching calls three times a month. We have different sessions. We have 20 minute private check in. So look into it. The breast cancer recovery coach.com that's my website. You can find everything there, along with a lot of free downloads that I offer to just help and support you along the way. All right, friends. So next until next time, take. Of yourself, trust what you feel, and keep creating a life you love and believing in yourself that you have so much power over your health, one little, tiny step at a time, one day at a time, I'll see you next week.