There are some things in life that bond people instantly like motherhood or having a cancer diagnosis.

We get each other in ways that people who haven’t shared the experience can never completely understand.

In this episode, I’ll introduce you to Ashlee and Michael Cramer, an incredible mother and son duo that I had the honor of meeting recently and whose message of connection, family, and managing life with cancer is something we can all relate to.

This episode is one of inspiration, strength, and most of all lots of love.

Check it out and be sure to follow them for more support.

Referred to in this episode:

Michael and Mom Talk Cancer Podcast

Michael and Mom Talk Cancer website

Micheal’s book, “Beyond the Blood”

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Follow Ashlee Cramer on

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Read the full transcript:

0:00
You're listening to better than before breast cancer with the breast cancer recovery coach. I'm your host, Laura Lummer. I'm a certified life coach, and I'm a breast cancer thriver. In this podcast, I will give you the skills and the insights and the tools to move past the emotional and physical trauma of a breast cancer diagnosis. If you're looking for a way to create a life, that's even better than before breast cancer, you've come to the right place. Let's get started. Hey, there, you're listening to Episode 346 have better than before breast cancer. I'm your host, Laura Lummer. And I'm so excited to bring you today's episode. So let me give you a little bit of history. A couple of weeks ago, I was working on a project. I can't give you the details of yet, but it's coming out in a couple of weeks, and I'll share everything then. But while working on this project, I met a remarkable group of people. And two of those people you're going to hear from today. One of them is a young man, Michael Kramer, him and his mom, Ashley. And I'm going to tell you all about them in just a minute. But they were just I mean, Michael was remarkable. I met his mom after we kind of finished up the project. And he was just so insightful. It's just amazing to me what the experience of cancer can do. And I mean, I don't think it makes a new person. But he was already such a remarkable human being unsure. And just to listen to his wisdom and insight. He's just such a great guy. And then to meet his mom, the apple doesn't fall far from the tree. So when I met his mom, we started talking, I said, you know, we should do a podcast episode for Mother's Day, because she's a mom of a child with cancer, because I have cancer. And I have a mom who's still alive that I think about and worry about. And there's so much it's so much energy, such a dynamic between kids who have cancer, whether you're a young person or an adult person, like myself, and moms and my mom with cancer, are you a mom who loves someone with cancer, so many different stories in our head, so many different experiences. And I thought if we could all just have a conversation about our different perspectives, and how each of us see the experience that we're going through and what we think for each other what we think about when it comes to each other, that it would be really a cool thing to do. I mean, you've had a diagnosis of breast cancer. So you're someone's child, maybe you're someone's mom, maybe you're someone's sister. And in each of those roles, there's a different persona, right, we play different roles in different people's lives. And we have different stories about each of those roles. And we're going to talk about that today on the podcast as well, and how we approach those different roles, I think that we can go with societal conditioning. And if we do that, we can end up with a lot of guilt, a lot of worry a lot of unsureness and maybe feelings of lack of confidence and really just being alone. You know, cancer can be a really lonely experience. And you may be having thoughts or feelings that you think only you are having right that you're the only one that feels this way and you may not know what to do with them. So I am so excited to share this conversation with you because I think that it's going to be super helpful. And I think that the more we hear what other people are going through in after a diagnosis, whether we're not talking specifically about breast cancer today, just the experience of being loved and being in a family and being someone with cancer or loving someone with cancer. And I think it's going to resonate with a lot of you so that hopefully you don't feel so alone in your experience and maybe it gives you some ideas and some inspiration on how to deal with some of the thoughts that you have. So let me just introduce you to Michael and Ashley, aka mom. Michael Kramer is a 22 year old cancer survivor, bone marrow transplant recipient, a social media influencer and a motivational hero. So quick flashback. Michael was born in Paris. He grew up in Miami. He was a surfer, a skater on the Olympic development team for windsurfing, and Ashley, his mom was a dancer who turned early childhood educator. In 2014. Her husband was diagnosed with large B cell lymphoma, and she became the sole source of income, the caregiver for her husband, and the mom and dad to their three children. Tragically, her husband died in 2016. But this only brought the family closer. July 14 2020. Heartbreak hit again. And Michael was diagnosed with an insanely rare and aggressive cancer called had pedo splenic T cell lymphoma, less than 200 documented cases ever and the average survival eight Let's actually quit her job to be with Michael full time and miraculously thank God Three years later, Michael is alive. He has been through chemo radiation bone marrow transplant near fatal graft versus host disease, also called G v HD. He's been through hospital admissions for gastroparesis, liver failure of vascular, a vascular necrosis and the list goes on. And through all, Ashley has never left his side. And their relationship became an unbreakable bond. Together, the two of them have taken this heartbreaking experience and found beauty and pain. And that's their theme, that and love. The journey of Michael's cancer became a story to share and a purpose to fulfill. In the mother and son started a podcast called Michael and Mom taught cancer. And soon after a website, a blog, YouTube videos, they use social media to update and inspire and now they're sharing their inspirational perspective through motivational speaking, Michael is still in treatment for complications from his cancer and bone marrow transplant, but he's alive and in remission. And Michael and Ashley speak together doing all they can to fulfill their purpose of love and connection, not only with the cancer community, but with anyone who needs inspiration and motivation. And so I feel really, really honored to get to share their love their connection, their inspiration and their motivation with you on this show, in this month of mother's celebration this month of mental health support. And just another tool in your toolbox that you can draw on to know that this experience is something that when you reach out to community, there are going to be people there to support you. And you don't have to and I highly recommend you never do it alone. So without any further ado, please enjoy this conversation with Michael and Ashley. Oh, Hello, Ashley mom, and like, Oh, I'm really so happy to have you guys here. Like this is such a big treat, because you guys are just awesome people. And I'm so thrilled to be able to meet you. And now to get to share your message on the podcast. So thank you so much for making the time to do this.

7:17
Thank you. This is an honor. We love you.

7:21
Yeah, thank you for it was easy.

7:27
It was easy. You know, we talked about when we met doing a project that we can't talk about yet. But we talked about like we should do a show and talk about the impact of cancer from the perspective of being a mom with cancer, a mom who has a child with cancer, or a child who's got cancer and think about the mom, right? Like it's so multifaceted our relationships and how cancer impacts our relationships. And so I really want to dig into it. Because I think that Well, I know that a lot of people who have cancer, a lot of clients I work with, you know, we want to keep this mask of normalcy, whatever the hell that is. And not like be real about what we're going through. They feel guilty. They don't want to worry people all the things as you guys will know. So I think that talking about really happens letting people know that sometimes it's a shit show, like, you know, it's okay. Right. And I think it's important to talk about like, we don't have to pretend stuff is normal, because it's not normal anymore, right? I mean, not normal in the sense that we thought about it. So I did an introduction for you guys. But I want to hear from you. Like tell shares your story. And like why you decided that this super personal challenging. No journey in life was something you wanted to share in life. But look,

8:43
I want Michael to like, tell the story. But I just have to chime in what you said about normalcy, because literally the other day, I was texting with a mom, that's going through a lot. And she asked me something. And I said, Well, it's just she asked me something about Michael, his treatment. And I said, it's become normal for us. And she was like, Ashley, there is nothing about this, that is normal. And I was like, You're right. And I thought that that was a good point for us to remember that even though we adapt. Even though we do everything to make our life good, it is not normal. And so it is okay to have those moments of anxiety, or stress, or whatever it is, and all of those feelings that you were just talking about. And they're multifaceted. There's so many layers to this. So I just had to touch on that. And now I want my goal. Yeah.

9:34
Yeah, everything you're saying but the truth is sometimes it does feel normal, and I guess it's not normal, but it becomes a new normal, like we've said a million times and I think everyone was always hesitant new normal.

9:47
And like what's the normal is like, perfect, like both of those words should be just scratched out like what the hell do they mean, you know?

9:54
Is it a normal life? Is it normal? Everyone has unique experiences? definition of normal, it's it's just like a weird word. And I guess normal, your own form of things when you get used to it uncomfortable. So right now this is our normal, so whatever. Anyways, talk about normal and debate what it means and all that forever. But let's let me tell you a little bit about me and how we got here to be on this podcast. So when I was 19 years old, I was feeling really tired. It was COVID. I was home from college, and I was at home. And the biggest part about being home for me it was that everything was closed. So the gyms are closed, the beaches were closed, the schools were closed, and for months, or four months, I say for the first month of March and April, I was really tired. And at first, it wasn't that bad. It was just like, Okay, I'm just fatigued, like, it's nothing crazy, I'm going to be fine. I'm not doing the things I used to do. So I'm just like, kind of locked down. I'm not in my normal state, you know, I'm just like, that I'm not feeling normal. And then it was around. You know, June really that I was like, something's really up because I started to develop night sweats. And then I started to develop some fevers. And that was when I knew there was kind of a problem. And at the time, we thought that I was anemic. We had no idea what was going on, I already had cold actually got a COVID.

11:18
So hard to get tested, then

11:21
my symptoms, honestly, were not extremely severe. So this is why I didn't ever think it was something crazy because I didn't have to be hospitalized before my diagnosis. I was okay, like I could get up and eat and function and live in all day. But I was just more tired than usual. And my mom and I decided after I had some fevers for like a few days, and I just got sick and it kind of wasn't getting much better, like the fever would go away. And then it will kind of come back a week later. And we were like, Okay, let's meet with our family, a pediatrician. So we went and we met with her. And we did some blood work. And she looked at me and she's like, You know what, you look good. You look fine, like I'll call you in a few days. And the bloodwork is back, and we'll talk then. And she called us and she told us that I needed to go we needed to go see a specialist that she knew at Nicklaus Children's Hospital. And when she told us that, I still was just like, okay, like, I think I'm anemic. Like, I must be anemic. This is just anemia, I'm gonna get some iron pills, or maybe even a blood transfusion. So I googled that. And I was like, oh, man, I might get a blood transfusion. That sounds so scary. I don't want to be anemic. And then we get to the hospital, the doctor does some blood work. And I didn't even notice, but we were in hematology and oncology, doctors office and everything. I wasn't thinking anything. You know? No, my father got their cancer. I didn't know what to well, because I was younger. I was in school. My mom was the one mainly taking care of him. And when I got there, he did blood work. And it came back and he was not impressed at all. And he asked us to spend the night in the hospital. He was very impressed me it was very impressive that terms like this is crazy. It was not good. It was just not good. And the next day we came in, we didn't spend the night and I did a bone marrow biopsy and then boom, he told me I leukemia or lymphoma, admitted to the hospital. A week stay I had a poor place and they were going to start chemo but they couldn't figure out my diagnosis. So they discharged me. And then three weeks later, on August 3 of 2020, I was diagnosed with a part of splenic T cell lymphoma. So the cancer that has a 15% chance of survival, usually eight months to live. I was very fortunate that my doctors like somehow got the right mix of chemo and made a perfect regimen somehow based off research because there is no protocol for this cancer actually. Yeah. And I guess it helped that I was younger because I could tolerate more harsh chemos. Yeah, is when you're older. And given a diagnosis like this. It's more of like more fatal I think, because I was younger, you can get more chemo, you can get all the intense ones. That's why the pediatric treatment is the most intense because your organs are healthier, and they can sustain more and that was my case, thankfully. And I ended up doing three rounds of chemo that were short of a very intense and then I had a bone marrow transplant a few months after my diagnosis. We spent a month and a half in the hospital for that. And then we were right back in the hospital because I developed graft versus host disease which is what I live with now. And the first two years after the diagnosis of graft versus host disease. My mom and I, we were living in the hospital I developed so many complications. The graft versus host disease attack my liver, my skin, my GI my mouth. And it was a very hard time I still live it. I'm still in treatment for it. It's not over and we just decided that this sucks, like we sucks, but we have to do so. One thing to make it positive, we decided to start doing social media or podcasts, speaking, webinars, all these things, and we decided to turn something that was so not fun into something as fun as we could. And

15:14
like you I mean, not, you know, Michael said turning turning positive. I'm sure a lot of cancer survivors and patients, sometimes we hear all the time, just be positive. Thank gosh, are you saying that I got cancer because I was negative. And I think that's a little bit hard. But it wasn't so much about being positive. It was about having a purpose. And when you have a purpose, it brings you a kind of peace and joy with what you're going through. And it's, you know, there's a bunch of things he didn't say like he was an athlete, when he was diagnosed, you know, he was on the Olympic development team for windsurfing. He had a healthy diet, he had been going to the gym. So there are a lot of things that he was, I think, trying to get through that straight quickly. But there are a lot of things like we checked all the boxes for someone healthy. And he did touch on the fact that my husband passed away. Four years before Michael was diagnosed, he had a treatable cancer, the opposite of Michael, he had a more normal, like normal cancer. One of the good ones, you have the good cancer, like we did cancer, and the good cancer, and he ended up passing away. And I think it taught us a lot and grateful that Michael is here. Yeah, of course. It's become a huge purpose for us. But it did happen organically. I don't feel like we went consciously. Okay, you're going to this, let's start posting on social media. It just it sort of happened very organically is that we made a few posts. And as you said, right before we started recording that you did the episode of the show, and you are worried about comments being negative. When we started sharing comments and people reaching out were so kind that encouraged us that you know what, maybe this is helping people. And so we just it became the good kind of roller coaster of less, keep sharing the story. It seems to be helping people. And then when you share more, you feel more comfortable sharing, and then you realize you're impacting people. And it has become a really big purpose for both of us. So yeah, it's been, it's been, it's not over, as Michael said, he's still in treatment, but stable. Yeah, we're not in and out of the hospital in and out of treatment, but not in and out of the hospital

17:33
being admitted. We're in out of the hospital. Yeah, I got to go to the hospital tomorrow for we have to go to hospital tomorrow for just a checkup. But we're there like two times a week every week. But we're not doing so I haven't been admitted since my knee replacement had a few months ago. But that's another story.

17:49
Another important thing, right? Because you're considered to be in remission. Is that right? Yes, yes, I am. And so for anyone who's had cancer, we're considered to be in remission, that being in remission and having no evidence of disease are two very different things. Right. And I think that's part of the struggle for people with cancer is that we're so used to the mindset that you get a cold, you get better, you get a flu, you get better, you break a bone, you get better, you get cancer, and you might be in remission, or you might just be living with it in your body. But does it really ever just it's not completely gone, like you can't undo the surgeries. The chemotherapy is what they've done to the tissues of the body, and never really goes back to the same before. And so I want to ask you, Ashley, because this is really important. I deal obviously with breast cancer survivors, and many, many, many are moms. Right? And so they are caregivers, right? And they see themselves as caregivers. And now you were a caregiver for your husband, you're a caregiver for your son, you give support. And so as someone who's a caregiver, and they're dealing with cancer, oftentimes, I mean, I think women a lot of times, like their own self care is not even on the table most of the time. And then if they have children, it's not even in the room. And so, but it has to be when they have cancer. So as a caregiver, as a mom, how do you balance that? And what do you want to tell people it's like how do you take care of yourself when you're going through I'm worried and I want to help I want to be supportive and all the things I'll do you want? Yeah,

19:31
he's making fun of me because it is so balance is so funny. Michaels bone marrow transplant doctor, his theme is balanced. And it's so funny, he's a male. And some of the female nurses would be like, we hate when he says balanced because we understand. Yeah, not exactly. Balance. There is give and take. I don't really think that you know, we can try to balance things but even before word cancer, I feel like for moms, I would say to them, don't stress, somedays your kids are going to be number one, there's going to be days if you work that you might have to spend a little bit more time with work, and that is okay. So sometimes you balance by giving and taking, right. As far as balancing with cancer, uh, gosh, I don't think it's trying to balance. But I think it's trying to find like moments, even if they're brief moments of taking care of yourself, because I think caregivers forget they have to breathe, eat, they have to leave in order to survive, because you can you can miss all of those for a short amount of time, but not long term. And cancer is long term, right? Most of the time. It's a long thing. It's not just a flu. So for one week, I'm going to sit up with my kid all night. It's not it's not one week. So I think it is, it's long. And even if you're going through like a good cancer, and you go through five rounds of chemo, and you're in remission, it's it's still long. So I think that I and I've said this before, so just

21:11
to clarify, so people don't get mad. She didn't mean good. Cancer is a good cancer. She was saying that. I'm saying.

21:18
But I'm just saying I don't think there's less rare cancer, let's just say or one that's more common. Were saying there are

21:22
no good cancers. There's no good, we've seen the good ones go wrong and the bad ones. There's no good cancer. It's really hard. But Michaels heard me say this, so don't get mad. Everyone knows the analogy of the oxygen mask. And you know, I have actually heard in caregiver groups, they're like, don't forget the oxygen mask, put it on yourself, and then put it on the person you're caring for. And I'm going to tell you what I truly believe is that the caregivers, I know, we will never put it on ourselves first, we will always put it on the person we love that we're caring for. But my advice is, when you put it on them, don't forget to put it on yourself. Even if it's after you still drown yourself, you still have to breathe. And I think that that is an analogy I can live with. Because it is true will do anything for the ones we care for it. And you know, I did care for my husband and caring for my child. And both scenarios are hard. There is something with your child that you're like, I'm supposed to protect them and out here with my when it was similar, but I was also thinking I have to protect my children from what my husband is going through. So it is like a it's a it's a different scenario. Yeah, but the advice is whatever it is, like find something and also like it is okay not to be okay. 24/7 Because you can't be I have a suite caregiver group that I lead a support group once a week. And literally this past weekend we were talking about one of the caregivers was like, I can't lose it. Because if I lose it, I'm never going to come back. I'm like, Yes, you are. You can go on this floor and you can cry. And then you can walk back in the room and you're not going to cry forever. It's okay. And it's okay not to be okay. You don't and that's

23:13
really common belief. Actually, I

23:15
hear that all the time. Yeah. Is you hear it's okay. Not to be okay.

23:19
No, but I think I think what we're saying is what we hear from caregivers. We're afraid that if we give in to our grief, our pain, our crying that

23:30
you'll never get out of it. Yes. And I think it's it's the opposite.

23:33
It really is the opposite. Like I think you gets better when you let it out. You need to let it out. So you can make it's there

23:42
the joy? Yes. It's part of the healing process, right. 100% Yeah, it's because I hear that and it's like part and part of the healing is like letting go of negative emotions, processing your emotions, allowing yourself to feel and if you're holding on to I can't let go. Or you know, and you think about like, really think about that. Have you ever known anybody who never stopped crying forever? I mean, no, come on. It's not gonna happen. Right. But you know what, Michael? So I want to hear from you. So I am, I have a mom, my mom is still alive. And in the experience. So maybe it's been like 12 years ago now. 13 years ago, my oldest son was in a near death car accident. And every day I would visit him in the hospital. He was in the hospital for over a month than you any surgeries. And I go up that elevator. And I remember thinking because it was after my brother had died. And I remember thinking how lucky I was because my mom had to go up that elevator. My brother died in the hospital, had to go up that elevator knowing she was never going to bring her son home. I'm gonna cry. Okay, so when I was diagnosed, I thought, I don't want my mom to have to see someone else die. I don't want her to lose a kid. I don't want to be that kid that makes my mom go through that again. Now obviously we don't have a lot of control over that. Uh, but you know, Mom, your mom worries and your mom's your caregiver and she does all this stuff. What do you think? Are there some times where you want to say like mom go to the freakin spa like chill? Like, what are your thoughts from your perspective on your mom?

25:14
Yes, I wish you wouldn't do that. But the thing is, the way she takes care of herself is also to help others. And that's one thing I've learned about her is that she always says, The best way to make yourself happy. What do you think is that it's the best way to help yourself is to help others. And I feel like she just loves helping others and doing what she does. And I wish she would take care of herself a little more and have like a nice spa day. Because we did get her a massage, and she never used it. For your birthday. I forget, I forget, because we try to do something for every time there's like an occasion for her. And you know, it's helpless. She's like her mom, like, my grandma's similar way. Like, you know, you can't get her anything. She just been very wholesome. And I love it. But it's hard for her to take care of herself. There was a time when we were in the hospital that we had to force her to, there was a massage chair in the hospital, we forced her to go and that one day, the nurses, the nurses, but I you know, whatever makes her happy, you know? And what makes her happy to be with me and do what we do. So I can't be mad at her. And I love that.

26:27
Yeah, I love that. Well, you know, we were talking about actually, before we started recording, we were saying you had posted something that was talking about feeling joy and feeling sadness at the same time. And I think is an interesting perspective. Like looking at you from the outside, Michael might say, Mom, you need a break, you need to you know, relax, you're too stressed. And you might be feeling like I'm not stressed. I'm doing what I love. But it looks stressful, right? We have all these different perspectives. And at the same time, yeah, we might be feeling stressed, at the same time when we're feeling happy. And you did a post about that. And I talk about that all the time. Like we could feel all the feelings, right? So tell me, let's hear your insights, both you guys on that I'm sure you know, we all have moments where it's like, I'm happy and things suck at the same time. Right?

27:16
I think

27:17
all the time. All the time. It's weird. There's moments like I said, like where you go into into funks for days, weeks, whenever I feel like right now I'm a little bit in a funk myself dealing with a lot of just like anxiety, and it's just happened sometimes to me. But you know, there's always like,

27:35
songs because he's been through a lot. And there's moments I'm sure you can relate that he's processing more nice, like, oh my god, yeah,

27:43
there's, there's like a grateful to be alive. But, man, like the side effects, you know, there's like, of both you can be like, because when people tell me like, Oh my God, I've heard this a lot of times, and this really bothers me if you will say, you've been through cancer. Nothing else can be challenging for you in life, because you've been through the hardest thing already. And I've heard that a lot. And then just make not on like, I feel like going through cancer. It gives you a different type of mindset, but also makes things even, I think even harder in a way after. Because there's there's so much like, there's so much depth to you. And I feel like so much more sensitive, I was already sensitive, but now after cancer, it's a sensitive person. And I feel like I just have so many emotions now that I've been through so much that like, Yeah, but it's beautiful. Because I have these emotions, and I have all these things. And I have a good family and have my mom but like you said, there's there's joy and there's grief as well the same time. Yeah.

28:37
Do you feel like as the person with cancer, do you feel the pressure to survive, so that you don't let people down?

28:46
I kind of felt like when I was going through cancer, not it was like a little easier than it is now in a way. Because I feel like when I was going through cancer, I didn't have time to process it was just like, boom, like, I want to survive, I'm going to survive. And then I just did what I had to do. And then once you like process everything, it's a little harder, but I did feel pressure, but it was never like No, I didn't feel like I was ever gonna die. That's why I didn't feel the pressure because I was like so confident. I was so confident. In my health. I was in the best shape for my diagnosis. I was trying to stay active during treatment, just like walking and lifting light weights. So I always felt like a lie. There's there's only one point really where I felt like I was gonna die. And that was two years ago when I was in the hospital with the GVHD. And at that point, that's I did feel that but with cancer. No, with GVHD. Yes,

29:39
you did. Okay, so interesting. Yeah. Because I said, it's like, how do we balance I asked that because I know as someone with cancer, there is that right? And the better my labs get, and sometimes I think, Oh, crap, you know, if the next lab is bad, right, it's like a roller coaster and the people I love it like, Oh, they're happy because they're sad, right? And even though I have no control over their emotions, as someone with cancer, and as a mom watching someone that's like, how do we balance hope and reality?

30:13
That is so funny what you just said, because that's another conversation is when things are going well, I think sometimes when you're in this world, this cancer world, you're like, afraid the other shoe is gonna drop. And I think sometimes, at least I see with caregivers, and that, and I do see it with survivors, too, is that when things are going well, there's almost a fear of being happy. Because it's like, I don't want to get too happy, because I think the other shoe is gonna drop in one of my labs next time and my next scan is not as good, or what if I relapse? Or what if this happens, and I think that that happens, I've seen that a lot with caregivers that they get afraid to be joyful, or the other side is your loved one that you care about. So much is suffering. And then something happens in your smile, and you're happy. And I'm a really optimistic, happy, like by nature, like, that's just, I was kind of born that way. And I know sometimes I'd be in the hospital, and I'd be like down the hall and I'm living Michael and pushing him in the wheelchair. And I'm like, you know, singing and then I think, oh, he doesn't? I mean, I think it helps him. But then sometimes I think, Gosh, I need to not be happy. I need to like not be so happy. We're in a horrible situation. We've been in the hospital for months. Like what right? Do I have to be happy. And I think there's that side too. But they're saying is, I could be very sad and heartbroken that Michael is going through this. And at the same time, I could still have joy that I saw a nurse that smiled at me, or that came in our room, and we played music together or we danced or whatever. So I think sometimes we have guilt, about having joy when we're supposed to be having pain. But you can you can have both. And it can also be sometimes that you know, right now Michael has graft versus host disease, it is more stable. I mean, he's in treatment. It doesn't like go into remission. It's not like cancer, it's a little bit different, but it's stable. And so is joyful. But then there's also days that he's like, crap, this sucks. And it's okay that he can be happy that he's doing better. But also, this does still also suck. So I think goes both ways, you know, don't have guilt for having the joy and don't have guilt if you're doing well for having the pain that we definitely have both in our hearts. And I think that sometimes we feel like we have to do one, one or the other. And there is survivor's guilt, you know, wanted real confession is so my husband passed away eight years ago yesterday, from one with this. And last night, I was talking to my daughter on the phone. And there's a moment that Michael started crying and he's like, why did he die? And I didn't. You know, I had that feeling to him, like, why my husband and why not me. And then when Michael got cancer, oh my gosh, someone else that I love. And that's hard to sometimes you're like, gosh, two people in my life. And they're survivor's guilt.

33:23
But I'd love to hear how each of you make sense of that.

33:28
Make sense of that? Honestly, I don't know. I just feel like, in a way it makes sense to me because my father did what he had to do with his life. Like he was with my mom. He had kids, he raised us till I was 14 years old, which was not old enough to lose him but did like enough in a way it was justified because he wasn't a baby. He lived a life. He did a lot of beautiful things. And I feel like if I were to pass away when I was 19, I would have been like, I mean, any age is too early to lose cancer. But I I tried to make sense of and tell myself, okay, like I at least knew him, you know, at least have those years with him. And that's the way that I try to look at it. But

34:13
it's it's hardly any age. We know, two year olds, the way Michael is treated. He had his bone marrow transplant in a pediatric hospital. So we became very close with families that had we know multiple babies that have passed away. And when I say babies, no, in those toddlers, infants, we know young adults his age. His last hospital admission there was a guy that we were friends with walked down the hall together passed away. We know now that have passed away. And I think that we just we don't know the why. Yeah, I think we don't know the why. And I think that personally, I need a shirt that says there is no why because I'm like I have to let go of the why. But that doesn't make a purpose. Right? I mean that you go it's all a shit show. I don't think it's that I think it's we don't know the why there is no i but we can make sense of it like, Okay, you are alive. I am alive. So let's, let's be purposeful in our living, let's be mindful in our living. And I think what Michael was saying about his dad, it's more that this is my message to my children because I am like I don't want them to walk around going, my dad died. Like I want them to see my dad lives. He had three beautiful children and a wife had a beautiful career. He lives. Okay, for my taste not long enough, but yeah, of course. Yeah. So I think sometimes, you know, even in those two roles, we have to think, Okay, what was that gift? Maybe that was shorter, but more intense. And with no other way. But I've seen so many people make purpose. And I think that that's beautiful. And it's hard as healed. And sometimes we have to go through all that. It seems like the pain and the suffering the people that I feel like I respect the most of you, we bonded with you immediately. But it's because we share a lot of suffering. You don't wish as a mom as a caregiver, I don't wish suffering upon any of my kids every month. I just want my kids to be happy. But not really. Because if they were always happy, they would not be very interesting. Wise people, right?

36:35
Yeah, seriously, like, we look at Michael Mike, he's 22 years old. Oh, my God, you know, the wisdom, like, just being doing what we all did together and having the young people that were in that group. I was like, cheese. You guys are amazing, right? Just so young and worldly and so much more wisdom than you know someone who hasn't had the struggles? Yeah, there's definitely a life changing experience, if you allow it. Right. And I think I think we get hung up on that. Why, like what you said the why. And I often tell people like, You got to let that check out. You will never know why. And it won't even be white because I had braca one or two. No, because some people have that and they didn't get cancer. You know, some people got exposed to radiation. They didn't get cancer, like the Why isn't important. And I think, you know, can be maddening when people say everything happens for a reason. Versus you can find a reason if you right? Yes, yes.

37:31
That I believe that. 100%. Yeah.

37:36
Because we're just like, I don't know who's and I think sometimes we just have to embrace we don't know, you know, I don't know why people have different journeys. But the important thing is, and I see a lot of people suffering with this a lot or being a lot of fear for their own life, right. So much fear, losing life, that they're not living life, you know, so much fear of cancer taking their life, but they're not enjoying their life. And like you both said, You know what, it's always going to be too soon. And that's a question I asked when people are so afraid of dying and like, well, when will it be okay, give me a number. When's it going to be okay, right. Like I used to say, 82. And I said, but I want to rethink it. When I get to 82. I want to have a clause that says I get to rethink it.

38:17
My mom is 83. So let's rethink it. Right? My

38:21
mom turned 83 I was like, Well, hold on. Maybe I want 83. Right?

38:26
I, you just said so many things that were just like, perfect. I agree. It is so hard. I remember when Michael was first diagnosed, I heard that so much everything happens for a reason. And I know, and it's hard and you want to be like people are saying that with the goodness of their hearts. But sometimes you're just like, you know, I love what you just said. It's not that it happens for a reason. But we can make a reason we get what I was saying we can make a purpose. And there should be like a book. I'm putting this in a book. I have like a list. I joke with my cancer like the caregivers. I'm like, I always make them tell me the things that they hear that people really shouldn't say.

39:09
Oh, let's hear let's have some of the popular ones from you guys.

39:12
Oh gosh,

39:13
it's I love these

39:15
days strong. Everything happens for a reason. You got the good cancer. Oh, there's so many don't eat sugar. Yeah. Oh,

39:25
there's a lot of things. There's so many. I mean, it comes from usually a good place. Particularly offense to it, but I sometimes do take offense when people just blatantly I don't know. Just Say No sugar or cut out this do this. Like that's annoying. Like everything else I understand. But like when people just comment I post someone I don't even know just like, eat two tablespoons of honey and you're like some crazy thing that like it's not going to help and I'm just

39:59
right Yeah, and I do to like you said, I mean, I think it's people come from a good place. And there needs to be like a book on educating people on how to talk to cancer, immediately hear their diagnosis go, Oh, I know someone who died from that, like, awesome. That's great. Thanks. Yes,

40:19
yes. Or I know someone that did this. And they were cured. And exactly, to and it's always kind and it does come from a good place. But it's still hard to hear for sure. Yeah. But it is. But there is so much wisdom. I agree. When you said that before. So much wisdom that comes from going through your hardships if you if you want to, if you want.

40:41
Yeah, so like, I'll ask you guys, and I think about this, and I hear this. And it depends, I think to on the stage of cancer, where you're at, that people say it's a gift, or people say, Gosh, I wouldn't be living the life I live now if I didn't have cancer. And I think wherever you are, like I could say that right? I could say I would not be doing what I'm doing in my life. Now. Had I not had cancer, because what I would I wouldn't be doing it right? And then I would say, Wow, so many blessings have come from the fact that I had kind of learned so much I've changed so much I look at life so differently. And then if you said, so would you do it again? No, I wouldn't do it again. Why would I have cancer? Again? If I had a choice? No. What do you guys say? How does that sit with you

41:31
had a choice to have cancer? That's tough. Honestly, I would like to see how my life would be different if I didn't get cancer. That's the only reason why. But I feel like it has made me a way better person and taught me so much. But again, like, I wouldn't want to go through all this again, consciously. You know what I mean? Hey, you

41:53
better be windsurfing than going to the hospital for another treatment. Right.

41:57
But I love the purpose I have like a hate to deal with. But I love the purpose I have. It's It's like nothing else I fell before. So it's hard to wish it away. But you know, I would love I would have loved to have gone through this and then like, went back to completely heal physically, you know, that would have been cool. But that's not for me. So, you know,

42:20
that's part of the cancer journey. I think it changes you forever. It changes in mentally, spiritually, emotionally, physically. And I mean, it's changed my family, of course, changed my family first from my husband. And then through Michael, and I have heard you say before someone asked you and you're like, No, I wouldn't change it. So I wouldn't

42:45
change it. But like, if I had a chance to be completely helpful, I would take it.

42:51
Okay. I guess. I know. And as a mom, you know, when you say that, I think I got that I didn't have to see him suffer so much that he didn't have to suffer so much. But then again, he is like one of the most beautiful beings that I've ever met. And the honest truth is, I'm sure it was there all along. But you take to get to that, you have to take away all the layers and it may be cancer, it takes away those layers, whatever we go through, right. And I think that sometimes in life, we just want to like add add, add add add things to make things better. When they can't answer, like strips you. It's

43:40
like in shock when I talk about the onion layers.

43:42
That totally reminds me of it's like, onion layers. Yeah.

43:47
But a lot shrug, like last week. So that's so it's true. I love

43:52
its layers. But it's not just that it's like, you know, the thing about like, the chipping away, and then the inside there like, yeah,

44:02
I really feel like, it's like getting back to your authentic self, like really getting in touch with your spirit. Because in society. I mean, we're conditioned to fit in, we're conditioned to behave certain ways we're conditioned, that thinks this is acceptable. And this isn't. And you know, maybe as a kid, you're too loud. And you want to put a show on every night at dinner for everybody. And people don't put on so many shows. Sit down, be quiet, right? And when we have cancer, we start to go like that didn't feel right to me. And we do start to peel back those layers and start to be comfortable with who we really are. Right? I mean, I think that's a part of the healing process. But I'd love to hear so I call. I say when we go through oftentimes we create a protective barrier. So the person who has cancer doesn't want to say too much or reveal too much because their loved ones might worry. The loved one doesn't want to ask too much doesn't want to say too much because they don't want the cancer patient to think I'm giving up hope or I'm scared or I'm worried and so I think We, it, we want to protect each other. But in doing so we build distance between each other. Right? So how do you guys deal with that? Do you think that as a mother and son, are you able to be more transparent with each other because of this experience? Or do you have a protective barrier,

45:17
there's no barrier barrier. And I have to say, it's so funny bring this up. Because someone messaged me about this the other day on Instagram, they told me that they have cancer, and that they don't want to tell their family like how sad they are, and how hard it is because they don't want to seem weak, because of their family. So I was like, you have to tell them because then they can help you and they can support you. And that's something that we live by is like telling each other what we're going through. And my mom is just so resilient and strong, that I know that whenever I'm going through something, even if she's struggling, she'll be able to help me. And then we also help each other. So we're very communicative about everything. We talk about everything. Last thing, which is just very lucky that we're able to be so honest and vulnerable. I think that's what losing my father and him passing away at a young age is dear to us. Because it made us just like, realize how short life is and how important our family is. So we never had any like fights between us. We always said I love you, whenever we would not see each other like we leave. And I always say I love you, I love you love you, or I don't see you for a few days. I'm always texting. I love you, I love you. Like we're always telling each other how much we love each other. And just like remembering that family is everything, we can always communicate with each other. I

46:33
love that. And I love that you use the word weak, because I do hear that all the time. It's like I don't want to be weak. I don't want to be weak. I think it takes so much strength to be vulnerable. Oh, you put your heart out on the table. To me, it's not easy.

46:50
Now it's, it's like easy to me now.

46:53
It's easy now. But I think that's because only to my mom, like to other people. It's

46:57
like, I don't know, like I can be vulnerable

47:00
to be careful, right? You have to be conscious of who you're talking to. But I do think like in a lot of families, and that's what we're talking about that whole family dynamic is the it's okay, like you can let those walls down. And I think when I was first diagnosed with stage four cancer, my youngest son was 20. It was it was during lockdown, also 2020. And he was 2021. And he was struggling with depression at the time. And I was really scared. Like, can I tell him this? Will this? Will it be too much? Will he be able to process it? And then the same thing was like, God forbid, because we're so close that he finds out I'm holding back something from him and not trusting and right. All these thoughts in my head of like, is it okay, is it not okay? And ultimately, of course, I did tell him and all my children. And he and I told him, I was worried I was worried to tell you and here's why. And I was just honest about it. And he just said, Mom, it makes me feel so much stronger already. Like if you can deal with this, I can deal with depression, I will figure this out, you're gonna figure yours out. I'm gonna figure mine out. And we're not gonna hide anything from each other. And it was like, all right. And I think when we let those barriers come down, like it can be so much more than this, like Netflix, Netflix original horror series we build in our head, right? Yeah, it's like it can. It can be so much better if we give it a chance. Yeah,

48:26
I love that. But it is. I mean, for us. I don't want to say it's been easy, but I think it was like that was one of the gifts of my husband passing away was that we weren't close family, I will say, but it definitely brought us closer. And I always joke that my kids didn't have their bad teenage years because when he died, they were 1214 and 16. And kind of joke. They didn't have bad teenage years because of that. But they really they didn't I mean, not that they were perfect. I'm not going to say that. But because we were so close. We I think we had this communication. And I do I've seen families that have struggled going through cancer and separated. And I think it's because exactly what you said we get afraid. And it's mainly because we're we have good hearts, because we want to see other people. But I think that that is a big lesson. And I think that is like if I were going to give a message. Yeah. Be vulnerable share with the people you love. Maybe not everyone, and we do share on social media. But no, not everyone needs to share on social media. If it was good, yes. But I think that everyone needs someone you know that you can. When you need someone you can trust and you can speak with I think it's important and we're lucky. I mean, I always say I'm lucky because he's my kid and I love him. But I really like him like we liked being together. Thank God. Yeah, yeah. I like my kids. I feel very blessed in that in that sense. You know,

49:59
when We go through cancer, we are faced with lots of shitty decisions, right? It's not like here's a hard choice. And here's the good one right there. Like, that. sounds horrible. That sounds horrible. Okay.

50:12
How do you do with the Mother

50:14
Son dynamic? I mean, you're an adult, Michael, this your decision, it's your body, it's your life, but he's your kid. And you know, don't want to worry mom and all that, when it comes to making and deciding between really crappy decisions. How does the influence work?

50:32
What do you mean decisions? Well,

50:34
so you have to decide on a treatment. Okay, like treatment decisions. Yeah, food treatment, like anything, like you're gonna live this way. mom's like, I don't think so. Or you're not going to do and she's like, No, you should think right? Like, how's that work? And because I think this is important, right? Again, I think goes back to protecting people. Or I have seen many people say, I'm doing this and I don't want to, but my husband, my mother, my sister, my child says they're so afraid they want me to do it. And it doesn't feel right to me, but I've got to do it anyway. How's that work?

51:10
Yeah, we're pretty much on a similar page with most of my life decisions. I think she's like, the best person, whenever I have like an issue or a dilemma in my head, she really helps me get over it. And like, stay grounded. I'm always thinking there's something like I want to do or something I think I should do. And with social media as well. And like, the future, I get stressed, I'm like, I need to be doing so much more, there's so much more I need to do. And so he's like, calms me down, like, Okay, you're doing enough. Like, I think the treatment decisions, we've pretty much been very similar with, you know, we never disagreed, really, except for one point when I was very depressed. And I wanted to stop treatment, because I was so sad. And I was in the hospital for so long at that time. But then I got a lot of help, and I got better. And that made me want to continue treatment. So there was like a point where I was very down and she had to, like, not force me to do champion, but kind of heat me like, we have to keep going like oh, and you're gonna be okay, you can do this.

52:13
It wasn't for. But there was a point. It's true. And when I think about treatment, we've been really blessed because we have had at now I know how long I didn't realize how lucky we were. But in talking with other caregivers, other cancer survivors, I realize how blessed we've been that his whole team has been very involved. Plus, we always had not always, but about a year after diagnosis, we have a palliative with us. And palliative care does not mean end of life. But it does mean helping you with comfort, it means helping you make decisions. That means bringing doctors together in a room to talk. So I think that we've had a lot of open discussions with doctors and with palliative, so that we we always ended up on the same page. I think that the very beginning, you know, the treatments were so aggressive. But I think both of us just knew that he just had to do it. It just felt we both felt it was the right thing. And there was that one point when he was like, I want to go into hospice like dad, because my husband, my husband ended up in hospitals where he was sitting. And I was like, Michael, can I make a plea bargain with you? Is that you? Like two weeks, because he just started medication, like give it two weeks. And I'm like, and if it doesn't work, I promise you will look into hospice. And I did negotiate with him. It was the one time honestly we disagreed. But I could just see there was hope. And at that point, he had no hope. And I was like, Just give him a little bit. But it's true. We've been lucky that we really have had doctors that have given us also options, said You know, this medication has this side effect and Mike will be like, I don't want to deal with that. And we've really been focused on because he's been through so much. We've been really focused on quality of life. Yeah, I remember when he started going out with his girlfriend a year and a half ago and my heart My mama heart was like he's immunosuppressed. He's taking immunosuppressants and he's gonna go on a date and he's going to kiss a girl I just kidding. My heart was like this, but I was like you got to do like what are you gonna do? You can't just live your life in a bubble either. And so I think I've had to like let go of those kinds of fears but as far as treatment we've been and even that I was on the same page with him. I just had some some mama fears that I had to go okay. He's got to live his life though. You know? Yeah,

54:41
I was I love that you brought that up. I was gonna ask you because from Yeah, from a mother child perspective, like my goal. When you think about your life and the importance of like living and having future plans and like you know, vacations on, you know, adventures you want to go on? Do you You ever think about this is great, I need to do this. This is just life if you think I shouldn't do that, because I'm immunosuppressed, this fear holds you back and I was gonna ask you the same thing actually, do you watch him and just go like, Oh, God, you know, don't do it. Or do you say get out there and live with GVHD,

55:15
and my necrosis, it's really hard to do a lot of things that would probably scare my mom, or scare myself. Because I can't really, you know, I would be certified. If I could, I'd be like surfing and doing that type of stuff, but I can't really get in the sun, then my bones are all messed up, I just have a near place. So it's like, there's never really been a thing that I did. That was like, so scary. And, you know, I have to, you know, take risks with certain things like we travel sometimes. Yeah. But there's never really anything I do. That's like, going to be like, Oh my God, he's so scary. You shouldn't do that. Because I know myself, like, I'm not gonna go and try to play basketball or go in the ocean and surf with my knees like this. You know, because I know myself, and I know my limits, but I wish there kind of was, but I just can't right now.

56:06
Yeah, I've had conversations about quality of life, like there was a moment that after the bone marrow transplant, and when he was really immunosuppressed, he couldn't see friends it was it was zoom, or maybe one at a time with a mascot or distance, but that was pretty much black and white. And then it wasn't black and white, it got gray. But we did make a decision, especially after everything you went to. And we had that conversation about hospice, and we were like, We talked with palliative care. And that was one of the things that we were like, you know, what? You gotta live, you have. And we, like you said, we don't do crazy things. But we've gotten on that plane before and we started doing things. And I think it's important, and he goes out with his girlfriend, and sometimes they go, there's a small bar that there's not a million people, but they'll go play pool. And you know, he can get some drinks, but he's also gonna go and have fun. So good, too. So we do. I mean, I totally trust him. And he is 22. Now he's an adult. But of course, we live together and I do anything for him. But I also trust any

57:12
of you have to live. Yeah, I love that message. It cracks me up because we were we live close to the beach. There's a place that does lots of cover band concerts right here on the beach. And, you know, I'm a nice girl. I love Van Halen. And so we were out of you know, and I was like, Yeah, and I'm kind of jumping in my husband literally put his hands on my shoulders, and I go, What are you doing? He's like, you can jump. I'm like, Okay, I'm jumping. Jump, we're jumping, right? It's like the people who love you, right? Or like, don't do too much. And it's important to like, it's okay, we got to trust a little bit, right, you have to be able to live. Yeah, so important. That

57:54
is where balance does have its place. That is where I do believe that balance does have its place, the balance of taking some risks, living life, and still making sure you don't put yourself in danger. He's not going to do some crazy. I mean, maybe, but he doesn't want to put his life at risk either.

58:15
So so what else? What have I not asked you guys about that you would like to know, that you would like to talk about or the message you would like people to know, it's like, if you're out there and your mom if you're someone with cancer, and here's what you could do for your mom, or just overall anything, I don't care?

58:34
Well, I'll just say that you're someone with cancer and you need someone to talk to you could definitely DM me on Instagram. I probably will. I do get a lot of DMS but I usually answer the ones that talk about something when someone messaged me about cancer. So please reach out to me, I lead a support group, my mom needs a support group for caregivers as well. And there is support out there you are not alone. And we are there for you. So

59:00
important. You know, Michael, that's so important too, because sadly, so many more young people are being diagnosed with cancer. You know, and it is a different experience. You know, I'm I was 48 when I was first diagnosed, but I have I have clients that were in their late 20s that were in their early 30s. And it is a different experience when you're in a different stage of life. Right. And I do think that at any stage of life, it's important to be able to connect with someone else who's young and identify and understand what that means. Yeah, thank you for that. That's great. And you know what, I'm gonna come back and ask you that question to Ashley but because you've said a couple of times, Michael about getting help get help. How do you guys feel about getting coaching getting therapy? You are you big believers in that what would you say to people because I say get more help, like people don't want to get help, right? That help? Yeah, do it on your own?

59:55
I have therapy Thursday,

59:56
so yes, therapy Thursday. I love it. Yeah, no, I Is it important to you? Why do you think it's

1:00:04
important? It's just so important to talk to somebody who's like a professional. And also my mom is my therapist as well. I just think it's so important, like, you have a problem. And it's good to get other people's perspectives on it. And it's good to have to get a fresh view, I think the most important thing about therapy is we have these problems in our head. And we look at these problems, and we think they're such big problems. But when you tell it to someone, they are not in your position, and they can offer you the advice that you need to hear. And that's the first thing my mom's telling me to is like, what would you tell yourself? If you were your friend, like if I was like, Oh, I'm having this problem. And my friend gave me this piece of advice, you have to tell it to yourself, like, you have to be your own therapist sometimes. But it's very important to have a therapist as well.

1:00:52
I agree. Yeah.

1:00:54
And like, talk to yourself, Michael, like you were talking to someone that you love. Yeah, I think sometimes we're very hard on ourselves. And that goes for not just someone the cancer well, that goes for everyone who's who like that. Sometimes he's like, pardon himself, because physically, he can't do the things he did it before. And that's hard when you were an athlete, and you were training to do something that you can't do anymore. So things sometimes you get so hard on yourself, and then but maybe I should be doing more of this. And I'm like, you're good. But but tell that to yourself, too. Yeah, I agree with him. And and you I think getting either coaching, being in a support group, a therapist, I think sometimes it's challenging in our healthcare system, to be able to afford a therapist. And I think that is a challenge for some people, not for everyone, but for some people. Yeah. And but I do know, there's so many free support groups. Yeah. So and I think it does help. And so often, it's like, the irony is that when we're going through these things, I think sometimes to protect ourselves, we do close the doors. And we do isolate, because maybe we want to protect other people or protect ourselves. But the irony is, we really need to be doing the opposite so often, and again, not to share with the whole world. But I think it really is important to know you're not alone, because I think I hear that from caregivers all the time. I'm alone. I feel like I'm alone. And you're not. Yeah, definitely not. There's people out there there is support. And I know just like Michael said, I mean, I know I'm I do the same thing, you do the same thing. You're coaching people. So there is support out there. Sometimes you have reached your handout. And that's like scary, being vulnerable. But once you take that step, I just I see so many people like in my group, that they once they take that step and share they're like, oh my gosh, other people have been through this. Okay. And it gives you hope. And I hope is a really there's a big, there's a big difference between, you know, depression and sadness and grief, sadness and grief have, you can still have hope?

1:03:18
Yeah, absolutely. And I think it's important to to be to vet things. A lot of times I hear people say, Oh, I don't do groups, because I was in this Facebook group. And everybody was, you know, saying terrible, sad things. I don't do groups. And I think people need to know, like, there are groups that are out there specifically to say, there's more options, there's more hope you're not alone. Let's move forward. And it's not just a bitch session. It's actually support. Right. This is how you live.

1:03:47
I have heard that too. I had a caregiver recently joined my group. And she's like, I never wanted to join another group, because I wasn't a bitch session. Yeah. And I was like, I get that. Like, I wouldn't want to be in that either. That does No. But for some people, it might help for some people. So nothing against that, if that helps you cool. But I but I agree. I think supporting each other is is a big thing. But there is support. I do believe their support.

1:04:11
Yeah, well, you guys, of course, I'm gonna put the links to all your social media. And you know, for definitely people reach out to you guys. And actually, especially I think there needs to be more there needs to be more talked about caregivers, whether you are a caregiver with cancer, or whether you're caring for someone with cancer, and also in my kind of population, and a lot of women I deal with, most people get diagnosed with breast cancer over the age of 50. The majority. So a lot of my clients are caregivers for elderly parents while they're going through cancer, right. So that is a big thing that I see very often too. So I think in any fad, like we can never just look and go, Oh, I'm going through cancer, but it's like you play so many roles, and it's important to get support and all of those roles and I do You see like oftentimes caregivers, almost it's kind of like an invisibility cloak sometimes, right? Because it's like it's like a pregnant couple right? And all the attention is on the mom because she's pregnant that does Oh, my life is about to be turned upside

1:05:15
down it is important there are so many facets and that is a challenge with being a caregiver I think so often is maybe your own health plus the health of someone else. Maybe you do have children, whatever relationship

1:05:27
it's a charge. It is yeah, so thank you for being there to support people and thank both of you. And this has been an absolute pleasure as I knew it would be thank you so much for making the time for this.

1:05:38
Oh my gosh, you are just a beautiful shining light and amazing code and a blessing so grateful we met you. Yes. Thank

1:05:48
you. All right, you love that is a wrap on I hope now I know that you love them as much as I love them. And I hope that you can take some little nugget away from that that inspires you and supports you and helps you feel like you're not alone in this world in this experience. And you know what I love about our conversation is just that that connection that I think that message that everything's okay you know that feeling all the fields is okay good days are okay bad days are okay, whatever you're going through it just is what it is and to be in that moment and accept it for what it is and know that there's other people who are there with their arms open willing to help and support and love and care for you through it is everything all right I'll talk to you again soon Until then be good to yourself take care