Episode Overview

Have you ever found yourself clinging to a certain food—not because you know it’s good for your body, but because your heart just can’t let it go?

Maybe it’s cheese… or a warm, crusty slice of sourdough. And while your brain might whisper, “But it’s fermented!” or “It’s just a little,” deep down, you wonder… Is this helping my body or hurting it?

In this episode, I walk you through two of the most emotionally charged foods I get asked about in breast cancer recovery: dairy and sourdough bread. These aren’t just nutrition choices—they’re comfort foods, cultural foods, “health halo” foods. And we don’t want to feel guilty for loving them. But we do want to know the truth.

This is not a “good vs. bad” food conversation—it’s about learning how to eat in a way that supports your unique healing terrain.

✨ What You’ll Learn in This Episode:

• The three big reasons dairy causes confusion (and fear) after a diagnosis

• What science really says about dairy and breast cancer risk

• Why sourdough bread has a “health halo” and what your gut says about that

• The role of gluten, zonulin, and leaky gut in inflammation

• Whether toasting bread actually lowers carbohydrate impact (spoiler: not really)

• How to tune in to your body’s signals instead of relying on rigid rules or emotional attachments

📚 Resources & Research Links:

• Loma Linda Dairy & Breast Cancer Study (2020):
  https://doi.org/10.1093/ije/dyaa007

• Meta-analysis on Dairy and Cancer Risk (2021):
  https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8520314/

• WCRF Cancer Prevention and Dairy Review (Non-Industry Funded):
  https://www.wcrf.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/10/Meat-fish-and-dairy-products.pdf

• Toasting & Glycemic Response Study (Oxford Brookes, 2008):
  https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17426743/

💬 Ready to Stop Second-Guessing What’s on Your Plate?

You don’t need more conflicting advice—you need a way to feel confident in your food choices, for your body, right now.

🌱 Join me inside the Better Than Before Breast Cancer Life Coaching Membership to get support, guidance, and real-time coaching to help you nourish your terrain and live with peace—not food fear.

If this episode helped ease some of your food confusion, share it with a friend or leave a review. Your voice helps other women find the healing support they need.

I’ll be back next week with more support for your healing journey.

With love,
💗 Laura

💌 Want weekly support, new episodes, and wellness tips in your inbox?

Join my email list and get resources for healing, hope, and living with intention after breast cancer.

👩‍💻 Follow me on Instagram for daily inspiration.

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Read the full transcript:

0:00
You're listening to better than before breast cancer with the breast cancer recovery coach, I'm your host, Laura Lummer. I'm a certified life coach and I'm a breast cancer thriver. In this podcast, I will give you the skills on the insides and the tools to move past the emotional and physical trauma of a breast cancer diagnosis if you're looking for a way to create a life that's even better than before breast cancer, you've come to the right place. Let's get started.

0:33
Hey there, my beautiful friends. Welcome to Episode 422

0:38
of better than before breast cancer. With me. Laura Lummer, the breast cancer recovery coach, this episode is kind of a love hate one. You might love it, you might hate it, but I believe that whatever side you fall on, it's going to give you some clarity. We're going to clear up some questions. We're going to get into talking about two foods that come up in conversation all the time, especially when we're trying to eat for healing, we're trying to balance blood sugar and feel confident in the choices we make and the safety of those choices, right? We want to feel safe with the food we put into our body. And so a lot of information can be confusing, and especially with these two foods. So let's see if we can't clear it up today, we're going to talk about dairy and beloved sourdough bread. Now I want to be very clear from the very start, this is not a good food versus bad food conversation. It is all about context, and I believe it's always about context, unless we're talking about processed food. I don't even think of that as food. Of that as food, right? So I'm talking about real food, and this is about you and your unique body. Because healing a body, supporting the health of a body, especially if you're in recovery or working to heal, I don't believe it's about following rigid food rules. I think that brings up a lot of stress and unhappiness. I think it's about learning to listen to your body with compassion and curiosity, and making choices that support the terrain you're living in the tissues of this body now, in what it needs today, right? So we're going to talk about these two foods, often why they feel so confusing what the science actually says and who funded the science, because that absolutely does matter, at least it matters to me and how to tune into your body's response, so you can stop second guessing yourself every time you stand in front of the fridge or the bread basket. So whether you love your yogurt and berries or you find comfort in a warm, buttery slice of sourdough bread, I think this episode is gonna hopefully let you walk away with clarity and not guilt, so you can make those choices and enjoy them all right, let's talk about dairy first. So this question about dairy, it comes up all the time. People want to know, Can I eat it? Is it bad? What does it cause? I hear it's bad for you, and I get it. There's a lot of conflicting information out there. And when you've had a diagnosis, I think everything feels like it has more weight, especially when we hear information that says this causes inflammation, and inflammation is the root of all disease, right? And we don't want to touch anything that creates inflammation with a 10 foot pole. So you want to do the right thing for yourself. But how do you know what is right when one person is telling you dairy is toxic and someone else is saying is essential for bone health? So let's walk through this. Dairy is confusing, and there's a lot of fear, and it comes up for three main reasons. The big one is hormones. People worry about estrogen and milk and whether that might feed hormone positive cancers. And then the second one is inflammation. A lot of women say they feel puffy or bloated or congested when they eat dairy. And then the third one is that there are studies that seem to go back and forth about whether dairy increases or decreases cancer risk. So it's not surprising that we end up staring at a yogurt container in the grocery store and wonder, is this a healing food, or is this a dangerous food? So we need to look at this with context, instead of with fear, with curiosity. So let's talk about what's actually in dairy. There's a mix of protein, mainly cassium and whey. There's fats, which include some really helpful short chain fatty acids like butyrate, which is something that actually supports gut health. And there are minerals like calcium, potassium, phosphorus, and it can have D and k2, depending on the type of milk or if it's fortified. But the form of dairy you choose matters a lot, and there's a huge difference between a sugar laden processed yogurt and a full fat grass fed coffee. Altered yogurt. So just like there's a difference between a slice of American cheese and a wedge of raw sheep's milk cheese from a local farm, and cheese is a big deal, right? A lot of women come to and say, I can't give up cheese. Please don't ask me to give up cheese. And so this information is important when it comes to enjoying what we eat. So here's where I think that the science helps us with this conversation. I found a 2017 meta analysis. So that's the kind of study where they look at a bunch of studies and pull them all together to see what everybody found out. And this was published in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition. It looked at the relationship between dairy and breast cancer. And what's important to know, remember, I talked about who funded the studies, is that this study was not funded by the dairy industry. I don't want to. I mean, it could be legit. I'm not saying that anything that's not funded by the industry is not legit, but I feel better when I see that the industry that's being studied isn't the industry that's funding the study. Okay, so this was not funded by the dairy industry. It was funded by the World Cancer Research Fund and the National Cancer Institute, and these are organizations that are very focused on cancer prevention, not on selling food. And so the study found that there was no consistent link between dairy and breast cancer risk, and it actually suggested that some types of dairy, like yogurt, might even be protective. Then there was a 2020 study, and researchers at Loma Melinda University in Southern California published a really large study in the International Journal of Epidemiology. This, again, was not funded by the dairy industry. It was academic research, and their goal is simply to look at patterns in diet and breast cancer among nearly 53,000 women. That's a lot, and what they found was that high intake of conventional dairy, please remember that that term conventional dairy were associated with a modest increase in breast cancer risk, but fermented dairy and plant based milks were not. And so I think that tells us something important. This isn't a black and white issue. Quality Matters, the type of dairy matters, the amount of dairy matters, and most importantly, how your body responds matters more than anything. So how do we apply this to real life? Well, if you're choosing to include dairy in your nutrition, which I do, you can be really thoughtful about it, and I encourage women to always look for these qualities, organic, full fat, grass fed dairy, all right, we want our food to be as clean as possible, especially if there's potential that it gets exposed to hormones. If you can't find those qualities, and some people can't, and I have clients that struggle to find these depending on where they live. Then see if you can find a two dairy, which I'll talk about in a minute, or goat or sheep's milk, and those tend to be less inflammatory for people who are sensitive to the A one protein Cassian in conventional cow's milk. So I just want to quickly touch on this, a one, a two thing, because it's something a lot of people have never heard of. So most of the milk and grocery store shelves comes from cows that produce a protein called a one beta casein. And for some people, this protein can be really hard to digest and it might trigger inflammation or discomfort. We go back to that bloating thing. Now, on the other hand, there are a two milk that come from older breeds of cows, like Jersey cows, Guernsey cows, or some heritage European breeds. It used to be that people would say, Oh, the eight European cows are a two. And you know, United States cows, domestic cows are a one. That's not entirely true, but factory raised cows mostly are a one cows. So the kind of milk that comes from these a two cows and goats and sheep has a two beta Cassian, and that tends to be easier on the digestive system and less likely to cause an inflammatory response. It is not magic, it's not a cure all, but for some people who have sensitivities, it can absolutely make a noticeable difference. Then there are fermented forms, like yogurt, kefir and raw cheeses, and those can actually help support your gut health and your immune function. But again, it depends on the person, because some people have high histamine reactions, lots of allergies, and they don't produce a lot of the enzyme they need to be able to process in their body digest fermented foods and raw cheeses and things of that nature. So again, it comes back to, how do you feel? Right? I always ask my clients this. When they say, can I eat this? Is this good? Is it bad? I ask, Is it clean? Is it a. Good, reputable source. And how do you feel after you eat it? You are the expert on you. Does it cause bloating? Do you have headaches? Does do you get stiff? Do you get joint pain? Do you get mood shifts? Do you notice that you just feel overall inflamed? Do you get itchy? Do you get a scratchy throat? Do you get a runny nose? Lots of things you can think about how's your body responding to this food when you put it in you, and are you eating it because it supports your health and you enjoy it, or are you eating it because it's a comfort food and it sneaks in during stressful times? So there's no blanket rule that says dairy is bad or dairy is good. In my opinion, there's only what supports your healing terrain and the quality, right? The Quality Matters. Is it bad to have regular, conventional milk that's not organic, pasteurized, grass fed? Well, there's just a potential that it's going to have some things in it that you don't want to be putting in your body on a regular basis. So you've got to weigh that out, right? My role is inform you, give you the education. Your role is to be the expert on you. You're the CEO of your body. Ask yourself to write questions so that you can feel confident in your nourishment and not afraid of food. Okay, let's talk about sourdough bread. Can you just smell it? There's something about sourdough bread that speaks to the heart. For a lot of people, the smell, that crunch of the crust, the soft is perfectly this soft, warm, buttery. And I follow because sourdough is this big trend. I follow these people on Instagram because I can't believe how beautiful their loaves of bread are, oh, I mean, they're gorgeous, right? So sourdough bread can be something that gives us a feeling of connection to family, to culture, just through our food. People love to bake it. And in the wellness space, I gotta say that sourdough bread has somewhat of a health halo. People think of it as if it's an exception to all the things we've been told to avoid when it comes to carbs and managing blood sugar. And I get why I have clients say it's fermented, so it's good for my gut, or isn't it low glycemic because of the fermentation? Or surely, sourdough bread isn't as bad as regular bread, right? So we think that it's somehow the exception to bread. And again, I want to clarify. I want you to know you're not doing anything wrong if you love sourdough bread. I recently had a friend of mine. My friends came over for dinner. Her husband has gotten into baking sourdough bread. I had a piece. It was absolutely delicious, and thank God it was fresh. It was preservative free, because it was covered in mold in two days, and I threw it away, because otherwise I probably would have eaten the whole loaf, but I did let myself eat a piece. Okay, sometimes it's okay and and I am more restrict. I restrict myself more when it comes to that, because of gluten because of carbohydrates and because of active cancer, right? But if you don't have active cancer in your body, there's a little more room to play. So it's okay that sourdough bread brings you joy, but if you are focused on and working on regulating your glucose and insulin, reducing inflammation in your body and supporting a healthier metabolic state, then it is important to pause and be really honest with yourself about what sourdough bread actually does in your body, right? So let's unpack it. One Yes, sourdough is fermented, and yes, the fermentation process does break down some of the gluten and the phytic acid in bread, which can make it easier for people to digest. Okay, so that's a positive. It's also it also slightly lowers the glycemic index of the bread compared to traditional white bread, which means that it may not spike your blood sugar as quickly. But here is the tricky part, just because something has a lower glycemic index does not mean it's low in carbohydrates, or that it supports stable blood sugar throughout the day. So sourdough bread still contains a significant amount of carbohydrates, and for people with insulin resistant, metabolic imbalances, blood sugar issues or trying to restrict carbohydrates because they are in an active cancering state. Even these gentler, so to speak, carbohydrates can cause spikes in blood sugar, especially if they're eaten alone, or they're eaten in a large portion, right then there's gluten, because, yes, even though sourdough is fermented, it still contains gluten. So the fermentation can reduce the gluten content a bit, but it does not eliminate it. And for some people, especially those with autoimmune conditions, leaky gut, IBS, chronic inflammation, gluten can definitely be a. Trigger so gluten can stimulate the release of a protein called Zonulin in the gut. And Zonulin job is to regulate the tight junctions in your intestinal walls. You have cells in your intestinal wall, and Zonulin is kind of like a gatekeeper for what gets into your bloodstream. So picture these cells are like bricks on a brick wall. Well, your brick wall here, around your house, is going to be covered with, I don't know if it's grout, cement, whatever, whatever you put the bricks together with, but think about it. In your gut, these cells are together and they're tight, but there are some things that cause them to pull apart and gaps get created. So that allows things to get into your bloodstream that we don't want in our bloodstream. So when Zonulin goes up because we're consuming a lot of gluten containing products, those gates, those cellular gates, start to open wider than they should, and that leads to what's called intestinal permeability, or what we call leaky gut. This lets food particles, toxins and bacteria slip into the bloodstream, and then the immune system sees that as a as a threat, and then that is where inflammation starts to ramp up. So you might have heard another common belief about bread, toasting the bread lowers its carbohydrate content. So let's talk about that. The truth is, toasting does not reduce the carbs or the calories in a meaningful way. It mostly removes water and slightly alters the starch structure in the bread. Food Science is a fascinating thing, but, and this is key, research shows that toast can produce a more gradual blood sugar response. So there was a 2008 study from Oxford Brooks University, and it measured blood sugar response and found that toasting white bread lowered the glucose spike by about 25%

16:57
and then freezing and toasting combined lowered it by nearly 40% so what that means is that your blood sugar might rise more gently, but the bread is still delivering carbs and gluten remains intact. So could you have a slice of traditional long fermented wild yeast sourdough bread paired with a healthy fat, like a grass fed butter and a protein and gently toasted or frozen first and then toasted. Yes, that's a mindful approach to consuming it, but it is still a carb food, and it still contains gluten, and it still impacts blood sugar and gut health. Okay, so let's not kid ourselves, especially if it's something you turn to daily. So if bread is an emotional safe zone, whether it's sourdough or something else, it can still cause blood sugar instability. It increased cravings. It can, it can contribute to inflammation. So again, questions to ask yourself, things to consider. Are you choosing sourdough bread because it's genuinely nourishing to you or because it feels like a loophole, it's got a health halo when you eat it, does your body respond? Do you feel stable and energized, or do you feel tired and foggy? I have to admit that even if it's delicious, homemade, fantastic, fresh sourdough bread, it leaves me needing a nap, right? I just know I can't eat it, even though, as I just admitted, from time to time, I'll have a piece. So does it leave you feeling foggy? Does it tank your energy? Or do you find yourself hungry again very soon after eating has sourdough bread? Is this food helping you move toward your goals that you've set for yourself, or is it pulling you away from them in a subtle and kind of sneaky way? Because our brain is really good about being sneaky about things that are delicious. Now, again, I think healing isn't about restriction. It's just about honesty. It's about looking at how a food makes you feel, physically, emotionally and energetically, and then choosing from that place of awareness. So no sour dough. Bread isn't a villain, but it is also not a free pass. So you can experiment with small amounts high quality fermentations with thoughtful pairings like a high quality butter or freezing or lightly toasting, you can test your blood sugar, and you can just notice how you feel, because you get to be in the driver's seat, not the diet, culture, not the labels, not the traditions, and be careful even buying the store bought bread sometimes that is not made In the same methodology that home cooked sourdough bread is and so you're not really getting even the fermented benefits of it, right? So I really say turn to a bakery or a friend who is into baking sourdough bread. We want to build a relationship with our food that is rooted in trust and joy. And I. Think that that is just a powerful place to nourish yourself from, right? So I don't think there's any one perfect diet. I think this is what I love about the metabolic approach to wellness. It's all about learning what works for you and what feels good in your lifestyle. And I think that's a path that feels more grounded and more nourishing and more connected to your body's wisdom, right? That's a path that starts with letting go of fear and and taking in too much conflicting information and asking better questions, like, how does this food make me feel? Am I choosing it from love or from habit? Is it supporting the version of me that I am becoming? So whether it's dairy or sourdough or anything else that feels emotionally charged or confusing for you, I want to remind you that you are not doing it wrong. You're learning, you're healing, you're experimenting, and that is, I believe, exactly what a healing journey is about. All right, if hopefully today's episode helped to ease some of the confusion and give you a deeper sense of trust in your choices. And I'd love to hear from you. Find me on Facebook and Instagram. Laura Lummer, the breast cancer recovery coach, let me know what you think about this episode and your sourdough bread and your dairy leave a review on the podcast or come and join me inside the better than before, breast cancer, metabolic health and mindset membership, where we go super deep into these conversations every month, you can ask anything, get coach, I think, get support anything, and find a library of resources to support you. You do not have to figure this all out at once, and you don't have to do it on your own, right? Just figuring out the next small step. That's the step that you take today, and I'll be here next week to support you with the one that comes after that. Until then, take good care of yourself. I'll talk to you soon.

21:58
You've put your courage to the test, laid all your doubts to rest. Your mind is clearer than before. Your heart is full and wanting more. Your Future's at the door.